Enterprise Manager confusion

I'm hoping someone here will be able to tell me what's going on. Here's
what's happening:
On my old laptop, I had SQL Server Enterprise Manager installed, I believe
it was version 8, but maybe not. Noticeably, when designing views, things
like table positions and column sizes weren't displayed, and it was
incapable of handling CASE statements properly, forcing you to edit it in
straight SQL code instead of in the design grid.
Now, on my new laptop, I have what I thought was the same version of SQL EM
installed. This one, however, saves the table positions and column sizes in
the View designer, and properly handles CASE statements as well. It also
take *dreadfully* long to load any complex queries into the View designer
over a VPN connection (sometimes 30-60 seconds or even longer, which really
adds up when you're trying to trace through a chain of queries).
Can anybody explain to me why the new SQL EM is suddenly more functional
than the old one was? Also, I'm assuming it's all the metadata about table
positions and such that's taking all the extra time to load and save. Does
anybody know if I can prevent SQL EM from loading and saving all that
metadata?
Oh, and if there's a better NG for this, please tell me.
Thanks,
Rob
Robert Morley (rmorley@.magma.ca.N0.Freak1n.sparn) writes:
> On my old laptop, I had SQL Server Enterprise Manager installed, I believe
> it was version 8, but maybe not. Noticeably, when designing views, things
> like table positions and column sizes weren't displayed, and it was
> incapable of handling CASE statements properly, forcing you to edit it in
> straight SQL code instead of in the design grid.
> Now, on my new laptop, I have what I thought was the same version of SQL
> EM installed. This one, however, saves the table positions and column
> sizes in the View designer, and properly handles CASE statements as
> well. It also take *dreadfully* long to load any complex queries into
> the View designer over a VPN connection (sometimes 30-60 seconds or even
> longer, which really adds up when you're trying to trace through a chain
> of queries).
> Can anybody explain to me why the new SQL EM is suddenly more functional
> than the old one was? Also, I'm assuming it's all the metadata about
> table positions and such that's taking all the extra time to load and
> save. Does anybody know if I can prevent SQL EM from loading and saving
> all that metadata?
Have you considered using Query Analyzer? The query designer is very
limited, and cannot handle all SQL constructs. It gets even worse in
SQL 2005.
In QA there is no graphical stuff, just a text editor. But particularly
on your slow connection, that is likely to be more effective.
Erland Sommarskog, SQL Server MVP, esquel@.sommarskog.se
Books Online for SQL Server 2005 at
http://www.microsoft.com/technet/prodtechnol/sql/2005/downloads/books.mspx
Books Online for SQL Server 2000 at
http://www.microsoft.com/sql/prodinfo/previousversions/books.mspx
|||Even though I type at about 80 wpm, I think the slowness of typing things in
the QA would outweigh the once-per-load/save slowness in the View designer.
I also "think better" when I've got the grid to look at, so I don't consider
the QA a viable option. (Besides, at 3Mbps down/800kbps up, our VPN isn't
THAT slow.)
I'd much rather know WHY there's such a change with what seems to be the
same version and if there's any way to disable some of it.
Rob
"Erland Sommarskog" <esquel@.sommarskog.se> wrote in message
news:Xns997961CE5B83Yazorman@.127.0.0.1...
> Robert Morley (rmorley@.magma.ca.N0.Freak1n.sparn) writes:
> Have you considered using Query Analyzer? The query designer is very
> limited, and cannot handle all SQL constructs. It gets even worse in
> SQL 2005.
> In QA there is no graphical stuff, just a text editor. But particularly
> on your slow connection, that is likely to be more effective.
> --
> Erland Sommarskog, SQL Server MVP, esquel@.sommarskog.se
> Books Online for SQL Server 2005 at
> http://www.microsoft.com/technet/prodtechnol/sql/2005/downloads/books.mspx
> Books Online for SQL Server 2000 at
> http://www.microsoft.com/sql/prodinfo/previousversions/books.mspx
|||> things like table positions and column sizes weren't displayed
For those who were puzzled, that was supposed to say "weren't saved". Don't
know where my fingers/brain were at.
Rob
|||On Wed, 25 Jul 2007 21:24:35 -0400, "Robert Morley"
<rmorley@.magma.ca.N0.Freak1n.sparn> wrote:

>Even though I type at about 80 wpm, I think the slowness of typing things in
>the QA would outweigh the once-per-load/save slowness in the View designer.
>I also "think better" when I've got the grid to look at, so I don't consider
>the QA a viable option. (Besides, at 3Mbps down/800kbps up, our VPN isn't
>THAT slow.)
In general you will not get much help in the newsgroups with the
"builder" tools in EM because pretty much none of the people who share
their experience here use them.
Perhaps you are not familiar with some of the finger-saving features
built into Query Analyzer. For example, click down into the tree to a
table, expand the table, then drag the Columns word to the window
where you are working. It will drop the list of all the columns in
the table, delimited by commas. Or right click on the table name in
the tree and choose to scrip the object as a SELECT (or INSERT or
UPDATE, etc).
Roy Harvey
Beacon Falls, CT
|||Neither of those features is particularly helpful to me, as most of the
Views I create are subsets of the columns in a table, as well as subsets of
the rows. So I'd spend almost as much time deleting text as I would
entering it in the first place, and the View designer offers the ability to
create INSERT and UPDATE queries as well in what I consider to be a much
more designer-friendly format (with some limits, admittedly, as it can't
handle DELETE/UPDATE queries with joined tables, for instance).
If everyone here uses the QA for some reason which is totally beyond me, is
there somewhere that I *can* ask these questions? Surely there must be SOME
others out there who feel, as I do, that the View designer is far more
useful for their tasks than the QA is...otherwise, there wouldn't BE an
Enterprise Manager.
Rob
"Roy Harvey" <roy_harvey@.snet.net> wrote in message
news:tmvga3hluhom15uoisoj2mtmlriiaepi9h@.4ax.com...
> On Wed, 25 Jul 2007 21:24:35 -0400, "Robert Morley"
> <rmorley@.magma.ca.N0.Freak1n.sparn> wrote:
>
> In general you will not get much help in the newsgroups with the
> "builder" tools in EM because pretty much none of the people who share
> their experience here use them.
> Perhaps you are not familiar with some of the finger-saving features
> built into Query Analyzer. For example, click down into the tree to a
> table, expand the table, then drag the Columns word to the window
> where you are working. It will drop the list of all the columns in
> the table, delimited by commas. Or right click on the table name in
> the tree and choose to scrip the object as a SELECT (or INSERT or
> UPDATE, etc).
> Roy Harvey
> Beacon Falls, CT
|||I orginally started out in MS Access, so when I began using SQL Server, I
also mostly used the EM query process because it was so familiar, looking as
it does like the Access query builder. But as I became familiar with Query
Analyzer's abilities and the shortcuts it provides, I started using it more
and more. It is really a matter of getting used to the change in format and
becoming used to the tool.
By the way, you can drag columns individually in QA, you don't have to drag
the whole list unless you need it. So essentially you have the same drag
and drop ability, the only thing missing is the graphically interface.
You might want to google for other graphical SQL Server query tools that
might work more to your style, etc.
Nancy
"Robert Morley" <rmorley@.magma.ca.N0.Freak1n.sparn> wrote in message
news:%23wuesg6zHHA.5476@.TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
> Neither of those features is particularly helpful to me, as most of the
> Views I create are subsets of the columns in a table, as well as subsets
> of the rows. So I'd spend almost as much time deleting text as I would
> entering it in the first place, and the View designer offers the ability
> to create INSERT and UPDATE queries as well in what I consider to be a
> much more designer-friendly format (with some limits, admittedly, as it
> can't handle DELETE/UPDATE queries with joined tables, for instance).
> If everyone here uses the QA for some reason which is totally beyond me,
> is there somewhere that I *can* ask these questions? Surely there must be
> SOME others out there who feel, as I do, that the View designer is far
> more useful for their tasks than the QA is...otherwise, there wouldn't BE
> an Enterprise Manager.
>
> Rob
> "Roy Harvey" <roy_harvey@.snet.net> wrote in message
> news:tmvga3hluhom15uoisoj2mtmlriiaepi9h@.4ax.com...
>
|||Well, I can give it a try, certainly, but my previous experience has not
been that it wasn't particularly useful to my style of working.
In the end, though, I still have to wonder why the oddities are occurring,
regardless of which tools are better for the job.
Rob
"Nancy Lytle" <word_diva@.hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:uevEeD7zHHA.3600@.TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
>I orginally started out in MS Access, so when I began using SQL Server, I
>also mostly used the EM query process because it was so familiar, looking
>as it does like the Access query builder. But as I became familiar with
>Query Analyzer's abilities and the shortcuts it provides, I started using
>it more and more. It is really a matter of getting used to the change in
>format and becoming used to the tool.
> By the way, you can drag columns individually in QA, you don't have to
> drag the whole list unless you need it. So essentially you have the same
> drag and drop ability, the only thing missing is the graphically
> interface.
> You might want to google for other graphical SQL Server query tools that
> might work more to your style, etc.
> Nancy
> "Robert Morley" <rmorley@.magma.ca.N0.Freak1n.sparn> wrote in message
> news:%23wuesg6zHHA.5476@.TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
>
|||Yeah, okay, so I looked at it again for all of about two seconds, and you
know what? I still *hate* it. I *will* not use the Query Analyzer for
anything I don't absolutely have to. It simply doesn't work the way I
think. While I can make my way through it when necessary, it slows me down
significantly just to have to wrap my head around how it's trying to force
me to work, and I certainly can't afford that kind of time right now.
I've been working with SQL EM for about 3 years now, and STILL prefer the
View designer over QA. It's not like I'm a total noob or something.
So having established that, can we please get back to my original question
or perhaps provide me with a forum in which someone can help me. All this
"what? nobody uses that!" attitude is really very irritating.
I realize my irritation isn't likely to make me any friends, but imagine if
someone told you when you were asking for help with your word processor that
hand-writing a 1000-page report was really the best way to go because you
have so much more freedom in how the characters look and being able to put
drawings on it at will, etc. Not only would you think they had it
backwards, you'd be PO'd at the lack of help with your problem (as I am).
While I realize you all may look at this in reverse and think I'm the one
who's hand-writing while you're using the word processor, it's not helpful
no matter HOW you look at it.
Thanks,
Rob
"Robert Morley" <rmorley@.magma.ca.N0.Freak1n.sparn> wrote in message
news:%23NX88V7zHHA.5160@.TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
> Well, I can give it a try, certainly, but my previous experience has not
> been that it wasn't particularly useful to my style of working.
> In the end, though, I still have to wonder why the oddities are occurring,
> regardless of which tools are better for the job.
>
> Rob
> "Nancy Lytle" <word_diva@.hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:uevEeD7zHHA.3600@.TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
>
|||> I've been working with SQL EM for about 3 years now, and STILL prefer the
> View designer over QA. It's not like I'm a total noob or something.
This is like saying, I've been driving automatic for 20 years, and I've
tried standard for 5 minutes, and I hate it! And it's not like I'm a "noob"
or something.
Do us a favor and give QA more than 15 minutes of your precious time before
you can authoritatively conclude that EM's crippled view designer is the
only way that you're willing and capable to work.

> So having established that, can we please get back to my original question
> or perhaps provide me with a forum in which someone can help me. All this
> "what? nobody uses that!" attitude is really very irritating.
It's not just "nobody uses that"... it's that "nobody uses that for GOOD
REASON." There are a lot of little bugs, quirks, oddities, and downright
incorrect behavior that make it unusable for most of the people I know.

> While I realize you all may look at this in reverse and think I'm the one
> who's hand-writing while you're using the word processor, it's not helpful
> no matter HOW you look at it.
IMHO, this is another of those "give him a fish, or teach him how to fish"
kind of things. If we don't bother pointing out to you that the view
designer is not really a viable tool for ANYONE (regardless of how much of a
"noob" they are), should we just shut our mouths and risk the fact that when
tomorrow you complain that CASE is not supported, or the next day you
complain that it keeps re-writing your query in incorrect ways, you'll blame
us for not warning you that you're insisting on using an inferior tool?
Go ahead and use the view designer all you want. But don't come in here,
and complain to use because we're telling you that the questions you're
asking about lead to a different conclusion than "you fix that by doing
[x]."